Paul Cotter & Blow Ups

[00:00:06] Hey everyone, Mr. Devil here, Kenny Danico, three-time Stanley Cup champion of the New Jersey Devils. You're listening to the Uncle Puckers, New Jersey Devils Podcast with Chris, Dan, Bobby and Tony, the Uncle Puckers. Let's go Devils! Is that what you're gonna be for Halloween, Dan, Obi-Wan? This was Emmy when she was like four. You look good. You look just like him with that cool little plastic mask.

[00:00:35] We are the Uncle Puckers. Chris, Dan, Bobby. What's up boys? How's everybody doing tonight? Aight. You know, for start of the week, nasty Monday. Yeah, tomorrow's my Monday officially. I was off today. But holy shit man, it's two effing hot hours. It is hot. This is stupid. July blows. But August is gonna be worse and I think like Wednesday is supposed to be like almost a hundred.

[00:01:00] Like this is too much. Too much. I work in a kitchen, guys. Too much. If you can't stand the heat, Chris. Yeah. I can stand it. That's the problem. Oh, okay. I can't stand the heat. That's why I've been doing it my whole life. You better grow your podcast. Yeah, that's right. I like it. That's it. That's perfect. Yeah, we need more listeners. Come on, Tim. Don't you have any friends? For fuck's sake. Let's go. Yeah.

[00:01:27] Let's do our next player profile tonight. We're gonna do Paul Cotter. This should be fun. I don't know. Didn't know much about him. You know, he's only been in the league a couple of years, but I just any devil fan after this show, I suggest recommend you go on YouTube and just look at some of his highlights. There's not much, but the man is not only big and tough and will do all the dirty work. He actually has some hands too. Yes, he does.

[00:01:54] He's an impressive guy. So, Bobby, I know you were the one kind of rolling with the info on Paul Cotter, man. The show is yours. Yeah. So, you know, I think like you said, man, this is going to be a fan favorite type of guy, you know, so start with the basics here. Everyone should remember that he's who we traded Schmid and Holtz for. In addition to Cotter, we got a 2025 third round pick.

[00:02:21] Like Chris said, I mean, there's not much only been in the league for a couple years. So you can look back at a little bit of his early years with his minor league affiliates and you can see that, you know, he had years where he had 28 goals in 59 games, 18 goals in 51 games. And you can kind of see a progression as he got a little older where his role might have been changing a little, you know, he slowed down a little on the goals.

[00:02:43] His penalty minutes start to pick up. And we have a similar thing that happened with him in his last two years with Vegas, you know, where his goal production, quote unquote, you know, went down a little bit. But I was looking up some more advanced stats on him. So for starters so far, let's see, he's got 22 goals and 45 points in 138 games. He also has 418 hits and he's quote excellent on the floor check.

[00:03:13] Now last year's goals and assists went down, but his penalty or his goals went down and assists went up and his penalty minutes went up. But the advanced metrics tell us that he actually had more shot attempts, more scoring chances, and his expected goals actually ticked up a little bit, as did his rebound creation shots. So I don't think it's a case of all of a sudden his hands went away or some people say overperformed his rookie year.

[00:03:42] I think it's a combination of luck and he's showing that he has what it takes to at least match the production that he had for his first year, which was what, 15 or 16 goals. Let's see. Sorry. His defensive numbers of his first year in Vegas, the year they won the cup, those are the numbers that really I fell in love with. Like 17 takeaways in 55 games, 17 blocked shots in the same year.

[00:04:09] You know, just 168 hits. Like this dude defensively is exactly what the Devils need. How's the plus minus? That I didn't check. Bobby probably has it. So his plus minus in the year where he scored 13 goals was a minus five. In 2023-24, he was a minus 11. The average is just under 13 minutes of ice time. Yeah. So he was basically a third and fourth line guy for Vegas.

[00:04:38] But, you know, I was reading a few articles from some local Vegas guys online. And one of the articles was saying that his versatility is really what makes him such a special player. This dude can play. Somebody out in your second line, put Cotter in. He'll play. He'll be fine there. You need somebody in the power play, throw Cotter in. He'll do it. Penalty kill, he'll do it. So this guy is basically... Now, Tom Fitzgerald, I heard in his press conference say that he has a little Miles Wood in him.

[00:05:08] I think this guy is like everything that we loved about Miles Wood and nothing of what we couldn't stand about him. Like he just seems to be the perfect fit right now. Yeah, that's exactly one of the points I had written down too. Because, you know, he did say that in Cotter he's got somebody who can skate very well. He's a physical player and he's got tremendous upside. And I think that's where you see some of the points he's had in his years past. And yeah, he did mention he's got that Miles Wood kind of vibe to him.

[00:05:36] Which is why you can put him anywhere. Probably not long term. You know, you're not going to put him on a second line forever. But he's not going to slow you down if you have to put him up there. And he's going to give each line a different element when we need it. I wouldn't be surprised if even when there's not a player down, you see him popping up once in a while on one of those top lines just to bring a different element. But his primary role is going to be on that third and fourth. And what a powerful third and fourth we're going to have for the big boy like this.

[00:06:06] I mean, his buzzwords are gritty, strong, hard to play against and big. I mean, his own quote, he said, his core game is being physical with puck possession and high energy. It's just perfect in a 215. Dude, we got so much bigger.

[00:06:29] Like just in a matter of a week, we got so much bigger and so much heavier, so much harder to play against, hopefully. You know, but this dude is like, you know, we always talk so much about some of the problems last year. And not having a replacement plan for losing Graves and losing Severson. And I think we mostly mean Graves when we say that.

[00:06:55] But nobody ever talks about not replacing Miles Wood. Right. Now, Miles Wood brought an element to this team. You know, he was, I mean, back, you know, when he first got here, he was a big time fighter. Still would drop the clubs. He hits. He's fast as hell. He has a good shot. He gets a little excitable sometimes in games and he'll put himself and the teams in bad situations.

[00:07:20] Like we saw against the Rangers in the first round of the playoffs two years ago, taking a few offensive zone penalties. Yeah, could have been more disciplined. Definitely. Yeah, and getting himself benched. And we all kind of knew that the fit in Jersey for Miles Wood wasn't really working out. So, you know, he gets shipped off to Colorado. But, or I think it was a UFA, right? I need to sign there. We need to trade him. But no one ever talks about that. Like that element was something that, you know, people, other teams had to pay attention to Miles Wood.

[00:07:50] Right. He was that type of player. And we never replaced him. I think, you know, not only did we replace him, we upgraded him with Paul Cotter. I mean, younger, cheaper, better. You know. We probably won't outscore him. Which is fine. But he's going to provide a different role. I think it's an excellent move. I think this is literally one of those otherwise under the radar moves. If we didn't have such a big offseason, like you're probably not even talking about this, right?

[00:08:18] But he's a very important piece in like this much larger puzzle. This guy's going to, I mean, we've said it a bunch of times. He will be a fan favorite. For sure. If it works out, I hope that. I mean, he only has two years left on his three-year entry level. Or his first contract. I don't know if it was entry level or not. It was a $2.33 million three-year deal going into year two now to $775,000. Right. So what do you see as his like most likely possible line combos?

[00:08:47] I know there's plenty that he could be, you know, in. But, you know, especially him being a little bit of a utility guy. We said third and fourth line. Where do you like him? Where would you like to see him playing? Who would you like to see him playing with? Me personally, put him on the left wing, the fourth line. And you put, you know, Bastion on the right. Lazar center in it. Lazar in the middle. Right. And I like that. I mean, that's just three dudes that all play the same way. They all do have hands.

[00:09:15] I was watching Mike Dup on the NHL Network today. And they had the stadium series game. And you forget, Bastion had a great game. And I'm watching that. And I'm like, holy shit, I forgot about that. He's doing his old Tommy DeVito thing. Yeah. You know, he scored some pretty goals. And you forget that, you know, Bastion actually can put the puck in the net. We all know Lazar can. I'm doing it again. I'm freaking out a little. All right. But Lazar is, you know, another guy who plays very similarly. Not as big. But, you know, holy shit.

[00:09:44] Now you have Bastion, who's a big boy. And Cotter on that line. Where would you put him, Bob? There? No, that is where I would put him for sure. Because, you know, I would think that the third line projects, at least to me, with being Pallott on the left with Hall and Nason. So, it seems like the right spot. You could argue maybe Pallott gets his chance again in first, second line, you know, if Mercer's not quite ready. I think Mercer's up in the first two. I think that's where he belongs most of the year. But we'll see. And then if you play him down there, and like you said, he got Bastion.

[00:10:13] You're going to have McDermott coming in for certain games, which there's a whole different. That's going to be so interesting to watch, how they do that. Because we all were in favor of the signing of McDermott. You know, he's great for what he brings. We just have so many people now that won't take shit. It's going to be a little different with McDermott. I think that you're right. Because I think the idea of having Curtis McDermott on this team is great. And we love the signing of the contract.

[00:10:38] And when the contract was signed and he, you know, locked up here for three years, we were over the moon. Because at that time, we had nobody that played like that. Now it's like, wait a second. Was that a good move? Do we really need Curtis McDermott right now? I mean, you don't need to win every fight. You just need to be able to drop the gloves. And a lot of these guys can hold their own. That type of player, now we have depth in. Look at it that way. Okay. That's great, you know, because not everybody stays healthy the whole year.

[00:11:07] And you don't lose that element, you know, within the bench. You don't have to be like, well, we're not going to look like we had the same grit tonight. Because, you know, we got an injury. No, wait, McDermott's in. Yeah, let's face it too. No, I'm happy he's here. We don't really know what we're going to get with Bastion. We know what we once had with him. And we kind of hope we get that back. Especially going back two years with that magical fourth line. All the points they did and stuff. But we really don't know. I mean, he was hurt so much. He is a tradable type guy. You know, because he does have a lot of upside.

[00:11:37] I don't think they're going to do it for the depth reason that you just said. And I don't want them to do it. I actually, I like Bastion. But it is going to be interesting to see what we get. I mean, would you be surprised if Bastion and McDermott almost split time? No, I wouldn't at all. I wouldn't. I mean, if it's anybody that's out of the lineup in favor of McDermott, it is going to be Bastion. Bastion went from a mainstay, I think, with this year with all the new additions. He kind of will be that odd man out a lot of the nights, I do think.

[00:12:06] But again, you need him to be. That's what we need. We didn't have depth. You know, like we said so many times with like last season, right? Like we shouldn't be relying on Nate Bastion to come back to help this team. We shouldn't have Michael McLeod playing on the first line. Like none of these things are right. We shouldn't have Jack. I mean, Luke Hughes, you know, quarterbacking power play number one. Everything was fucked up last year.

[00:12:32] But I'm just saying Cotter, Lazar and McDermott or Bastion. I mean, that just reforms our fourth line to I would say now, not only like we know that we have a top six that can score with pretty much anybody. We might have one of the most complete bottom six in the East. No doubt. Yeah, definitely. I love it. Think about the waves right after your first and second line in any way that you want to split them up.

[00:13:01] Like the third line that I just put out there, I would take that third line any day. Even, you know, I haven't been too much in Palat's corner. But again, in that role, I think that's a hell of a third line. And then the team's got to face that fourth line come out. All that energy, especially with Cotter and Lazar. Like those two guys, they're like almost mirror image of each other. The way they're going to play with that high energy and the tempo. It's going to be fascinating. They're going to be so much fun to watch. And I hope this team just stays healthy. That's it.

[00:13:30] Just stay healthy and get through 82 games. And, you know, let's see what they can do in the playoffs. But you're 100% right. I mean, this team now. And, you know, I do expect more from Palat this year. You know, I do think that a lot of it, like Palat knows he was brought here because he won two cups. He knows that this team struggled big time last year. And there's changes that need to be made. And he has an overblown contract with a lot of term. He understands all that.

[00:14:00] And I wouldn't be surprised if he put way too much pressure on himself first coming here. That he has to be that guy. Even though we have Jack and Luke and all the other boys, I think he really might have done that. Now, you kind of look at this team. You don't have to be the only guy playing defense. You won't be the only guy, you know, trying to be defensively responsible. You don't have to try and, you know, score every single ship. Palat's role is going to completely change.

[00:14:24] Palat's not about we hope he can still do it in the playoffs, you know, still, you know, give us those timely goals like he did with Tampa. But regular season, we're not really dependent on Palat. We're more so dependent on him defensively and those timely goals, doing what a bottom six player should do. So I think he's going to have a breakout year as far as with the Devils. I mean, he hasn't done shit since he's been here. So you still agree his or do you agree at all that his primary role will still be as a third liner? Absolutely.

[00:14:54] It should be. It should be. This is Dawson Mercer's job to lose. Yes. You know, he has to be up there. He's he wants to get paid. He wants to be taken. You know, it'd be talked about in the same breath as, you know, Jack and Jesper Bratt and stuff like he's got to prove it this year. And I think he will. I do. I mean, you're right. In lieu of picking up that other star forward that everybody wanted, we have Dawson Mercer.

[00:15:22] Now, two years ago, remember, he was flirting with 30 goals. Yeah. 27 on that offensive juggernaut team that we should be very similar to. Yeah, I completely agree. So I don't see any reason whatsoever why Dawson Mercer doesn't rebound and eclipse two years ago. And now what would you do with the top six? Listen, I still don't know where I prefer our four main superstars. You know what I mean?

[00:15:49] The only thing I know for certain is that for the most part, you're separating Jack and Nico. Some of the other ones, I just it's going to be up to keep to just see what kind of chemistry they get. But we've said knowing what you know, and Dan, you too, like where would you slot them? I know that's not going to be what happens. It's all about. But where where would you in your head? What makes the most amount of sense? I have always thought the most amount of sense would still be to have Meyer with Hughes.

[00:16:16] And then I can see Brad back on that line and hope that lightning strikes again with Heischer, Tatar and Mercer. That line was killing it at the end of that year. I mean, I do like that best myself. And any combo that works, I'm a fan of. So it doesn't have to be that. And I think there's definitely other combinations that work. But I like that one the best.

[00:16:37] I think for your, you know, for capitalizing on Hughes, the complementary style that Meyer has, that's that's that's the best. That's like the ideal that you can get them. Those same those two on the same line that the way they would if they mesh, the differences styles would complement each other. It would be unrivaled. It's a good thing. I mean, imagine a line of Brant, Hughes and Meyer clicking. Right. That's a scary line. Yes.

[00:17:07] No offense to the A-line, but we might have to take the name back. Yeah. Seriously. That that is just that can be a ridiculous line. And like you said, Tatar, yeah, he's a year older. And, you know, I don't really know what to expect from him this season. But, you know, how he played, if he can even get back a little bit like he did, you know, a little bit of what 80 percent of what he had two years ago, I'd be fine with that. You know? Yeah.

[00:17:32] And a lot of people are probably going to listen to this right away who maybe weren't even in favor of the Tatar signing and say, really? You're going to put him on the first line or 1A, 1B, however you want to splice it. Listen, I'm not saying it's going to work. I'm saying sometimes the chemistry is just that. I mean, it just worked for whatever reason. It may not work again. But to those people, you know, nothing you could do about it. He's on the team. Right. So then where do you put him? Who else do you put there then?

[00:17:58] Do you, you know, do you put Nason up there and you put, you know, I don't think that that's and Tatar on the third line. I don't like that. Then you're moving Pallad up there and moving, you know, Tatar down playing with Holla and Nason. Like there's really no other spot for Tomas Tatar than up on that top six. Unless you want to, you know, split up what we just said, you know, the Jack Meyer rat line, because that is pretty expressive.

[00:18:25] But either way, we talked about, I think, one of the other shows, you don't necessarily need a superstar line. You have two on each line potentially. And then another guy who, you know, shows a different element of the game. And sometimes it's just energy and just playing the game right. I think Tatar was a benefactor of the team playing right. And he was, you know, gaining from that. That's the key.

[00:18:49] Like we don't need Heischer, Tatar and Mercer to do the exact same thing that the Hughes line is doing. We need those three to be responsible defensively, which you know they will be. They're going to be going up against the team's number one lines. They have to be able to shut them down. And they're going to get their points. They're going to get their power play time. They're going to get counter-punching moments where they have played so well defensively. They're going to be frustrated, forced a turnover, and then they score. Yep. It's a completely differently built line.

[00:19:19] Like people have to, you know, we all know, like Nico Heischer is great, but he's a totally different player than Jack Hughes. They're 180 degree difference, you know. They're both fantastic at what they do, but they do different things. When you're going to face off and you got... Oh. What? A little delay. Yeah, when you're going to face off and you got, you know, two teams' top lines coming out, you want the Heischer line to go out there so you can defend a little bit too. And like you said, get the turnover.

[00:19:48] So hopefully you're taking, you know, the lesser of two evils for the second line pairing when you got Jack's line out there. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I have some power rankings. Some way too early power rankings. Guys want to... Right. I didn't look at these, so let's do these. What's up? You see the theme? How are... Can you do it again?

[00:20:20] No, I don't. Yes. Yes, I can. I will stop it. That's fine. That's fine. I didn't even look at these. So just, we'll go through. We're not going to read everything that's said. Well, when we get to us, of course, and some of the more interesting teams that we have to contend with, we'll talk about them. But who do you think number 32 is? Sharks. I guess. I mean, that's fair. It's not the Sharks. No. Hmm.

[00:20:50] The most powerless team. They're in our division. Blue Jackets. Blue Jackets. Yeah. That's it. Number 32 is the Blue Jackets. Number 31. That's the Sharks. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So we got 30. It sucks to be a Blue Jacket fan. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. It's so bad. Like I said on the last show, like it's got to be the worst being a Buffalo Sabre fan.

[00:21:18] And when you really think about it, I think it's worse to be a Blue Jacket fan. Yeah. Do they even have a fucking coach yet? I don't know what's going on. I don't follow them. They do not even have a coach right now. That's messed up. Number 30. We'll keep it in California. The Anaheim Ducks. A team that I'm really interested to see where they end up going in a couple of years because they're really building like we were. And I think that they could have a year similar to the Devils two years ago at some point in the next couple of seasons.

[00:21:48] 29 Chicago Blackhawks. Another team that I think is going to be very deceptively good this year. And they put a lot of pieces around Conor Bedard. Lorraine Bersoit pickup is no joke. Like I think Chicago Blackhawks are not going to be a joke this year. It's probably whoever put this together was you still got to put them somewhere, right? Sure. Have them leapfrogging all these teams right now. And this makes sense. You know, they were terrible last year. You know, this makes sense. They were absolutely terrible.

[00:22:17] Even if they, you know, went to like, you know, 55 points or, you know, well, that's actually quite a bit. But let's say, you know, 45 points, whatever they had last year, and they build up 10, 12 points. You know, that's a heck of a jump. So that's what I think they're going to do. Montreal at 28. That's another team that I'm waiting to pop. Just another couple of years out, but they could be one of those teams like Anaheim that out of nowhere just goes. 27 is the Utah Hockey Club. Yeti. The Yetis.

[00:22:46] I'm sorry. That's another team, you know, glad they're in Utah now. Fine. But it just, as a franchise, it's kind of like enough already. It's like, do something. Right. You know, it's been kind of garbage after garbage and then playing in a college arena. Yep. And now I think with the new owner, they, and you know, they did make some pickups. Utah could be one of those teams. Yeah. They got good role players coming in. Yeah. And they have some, you know, Cooley is no joke. He's going to be a stud. They have some guys there.

[00:23:17] Um, I think this is kind of low at 26 guys. The Ottawa Senators. Wow. At 26. Let's read what they wrote here. The Senators are one of those teams that are near the cusp of the postseason and they accomplished their more important task of this summer when they got Vesna level goalie Alenis Allmark via trade from Boston. That's a win. Uh, trading Jacob Chikrin for peanuts and paying $4 million for a 36 year old David Perron though seems less impressive. That's all they wrote about it.

[00:23:45] Not like their trades, I guess, but yeah, pretty low. I don't know. I just don't. I think there's other teams that are going to be worse than them. Even, you know, 25 Seattle Pracken. I think Seattle has a shot to make the playoffs this year. That seems low to me. Yeah. What about the 24, the Minnesota Wild? I think that's kind of low. Yeah. 23, the Calgary Flames. That seems about right. 22, Pittsburgh Penguins. That seems about right.

[00:24:15] 21, Philadelphia Flyers. You know, I think you got to look at the Flyers and say they're more of the team at the end of last year than they were for 70% of the season last year. I do think that they're not there yet. They have no goaltending. That's fair. I don't really expect too much from Philly this year. 20, Buffalo Sabres. I mean, 20, you're talking about being, you know, in wildcard run. So it's not so crazy. But yeah, I could even see them higher than this.

[00:24:45] Kind of in it for most of the year, even if you wind up out of it deal. Yeah. Now, I have to say, I haven't read these. I said that before. So you're talking about some teams being kind of low. Number 19 is the New Jersey Devils. Oh, wow. Okay. Now I want to know who puts this together. Well, Hero, whoever it is, or she, I don't know. The Devils are loaded with offensive talent, but had a chronic issue last season with limiting shots and keeping pucks out of their net.

[00:25:12] They seem to have addressed both initially with a late June trade that brought goalie Jacob Markstrom from Calgary. And then on Monday with the signing of 6'3", 206 pound defenseman Brett Pesci from Carolina. That's all they wrote. So this is somebody that knows nothing of teams. So I wonder if they got all the info. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, he got all the info. We put this out on July 3rd. But I mean, he probably has no idea of what the actual inner workings of any of these teams are.

[00:25:38] And he's going by last year's, you know, probably just looking at the standings and then seeing what moves they made. And then either moving them up a few places or moving them down a few places. Because the St. Louis Blues are fucking ahead of New Jersey. Are you insane, dude? The fucking Blues. Yeah, that's insane. Detroit. There's a bunch of teams it's insane that he put in front of the Devils and others. He put Detroit. He put the fucking Islanders in front of us. Wow.

[00:26:06] It was figured, this is what he wrote about the Isles. It was figured to be a stand pat start to free agency for the Islanders who did make a moderate splash with a four-year deal for Anthony Duclair, which I think is a fantastic deal. The 28-year-old winger split time between San Jose and Tampa last season, but was a 31-goal scorer for Florida as recently as 21-22. If he's close to that guy again, $14 million will seem like a bargain. That's all you wrote. So it's it.

[00:26:32] Just going to talk about the Anthony Duclair contract and move the fucking Islanders to number 16. Even worse. Look at this. What? The next one. Oh, you're reading it? Washington fucking Capitals. Okay. At 15. Come on. Okay, they made the playoffs last year, but how do you look at what the Devils team looks like right now on paper and what Washington looks like on paper and say that there are four spots in front of us? He's clearly looking at the standing points from last year and then just seeing something

[00:27:02] like, oh, the Devils can't overcome, you know, an 81 to 94 point deficit under the Islanders. So they have to be worse than them. But no, they literally can very easily. All right. So this is going to be where I'm thinking. You know, I already thought this dude was fucking nuts. But at 14, he has the Toronto Maple Leafs. Okay. And at 13, he has the Los Angeles Kings. On what planet is Toronto worse than L.A.? I just, I'm sorry. L.A., I don't, I'm not sure if they're going to make the playoffs this year.

[00:27:30] Like you, Toronto's the one team, regardless of what they do in the postseason, you lock them as a playoff team. They're a regular season juggernaut. Absolutely. There's your 19-20, you know, like that ranking. That makes sense. And, you know, Dan and I were talking about it last week, but Toronto is one of those teams that if they just get around under their belt and turn it on, they go in the fucking cup. Sure. You know, I will not be like, everybody loves to make jokes about Toronto and we love doing

[00:28:00] it because we don't like them. But they're just a scary ass team and they've always been. I know they have deficiencies like every team, but they're one of those teams that can get hot and win a cup. Yep. Number 12, he has the Tampa Bay Lightning. Number 11, he has the Winnipeg Jets. Okay. So now we're getting into the top 10. So angry right now. Number 10, he has the Nashville Predators. Okay. Okay.

[00:28:29] Nine spots better than the Devils? Because, I mean, I know everybody says that Nashville had the greatest offseason ever, but no, they didn't. New Jersey did. See, yeah. Listen, I'm watching as you go through this. You guys have the list and I'm comparing it to last year's standings. And that's pretty much right where Nashville was at 11 with 99 points. So he's just kind of taking a safe route. Yeah. Yeah. Number nine, he has the Carolina Hurricanes.

[00:28:55] Now, Carolina should be much further after what they've lost. They should be in the 13s and the 12s, not the nines. Number eight, Vegas Golden Knights. I'm not really sure what to make of Vegas this year. I can live with them at number eight. Number seven, he has Vancouver. Number six, he has Colorado. When you start getting to these top teams, you can really put them in any order. I'm not going to fight you.

[00:29:23] Like, yeah, you can't really, but that's exactly how it finished. It's exactly how it finished. Yeah. It's like whatever they want at the end of the season. Let's call his ass out. This was Lyle Fitzsimmons. That's not your real name. Jesus. Come on, Lyle Fitzsimmons. Yeah, it's that whole, listen, I mean, a true hockey fan will probably tell you in all likelihood,

[00:29:51] maybe the Florida Panthers do deserve to be in the number one spot, but it always falls down to that, well, they're the champs. Well, you know, if you had any balls and you really thought Dallas was better, like, I don't believe that Edmonton's number two behind that. You know what I mean? I don't know maybe who is. Where do you put Edmonton? I don't know. I just, maybe a slot or two down. I don't know. Like, I'm still bullish on Dallas. I think that, you know, what Dallas could have done, but either way, you can flip them. I know it just seems like Edmonton came in second.

[00:30:19] So right away, let's put them second. But they are, they should only get better. So maybe that is where they were. And the Rangers came in fourth, depending on how you could flip-flop those two. But they're number three and four. We got to, like, bookmark this and then see this at the end and show how wrong this guy was. No problem. Because it's got to be. I cannot. And I'm not just talking about where he put the Devils. It's not just a Homer thing here. Oh, no. He's so far off. He just took the standings from last year and just pasted them on with just minor, minor changes.

[00:30:49] Didn't even give good reasons for it. And I think, like, you know, like, anybody can do that. But how often is it right? It's almost never right. It's almost like, and we've kind of done exercises like this where you're like, all right, if they got 90 points, have they improved enough to get five more points? Yeah, that puts them in 13th or whatever. There's so much more to look at. I have another article that I wanted to read and go over.

[00:31:14] This is funny because it's seven NHL teams that must blow it up if they can't win the Stanley Cup next season. Written by Lyle Fitzsimmons. Oh, okay. Is this point counterpoint? I think so. It's his own point counterpoint. He's constantly in battle with his own brain. One team he has on here, and I just want to read a little bit about what he wrote. I did look at these. I just glanced through them, looked at the teams. I didn't dive into what he wrote about them.

[00:31:40] But I'm just curious if you guys agree or disagree that if these teams do not win the Stanley Cup, that you can't run it back again. You're blowing it up. That's the point of this article. Yes. So the first team is the Boston Bruins. He wrote, They've not won the whole thing, though.

[00:32:06] And outside of a seven-game loss to St. Louis in the Stanley Cup finals in 2019, they haven't made it beyond the second round either. So to suggest there's some pressure in 24-25 isn't exactly hyperbole. It will be the first year on the contract of team captain, the final year of his contract for Brad Marchand, who's 36, who's posted two straight 67-point seasons after a run of six in a row that he was a point-per-game player.

[00:32:33] That's not to say the franchise lack of parades since 2011 is his fault, but his exit could be a sign of incendiary things to come. So he's saying, you know, Marchand's UFA after this year. Whether or not he goes back to Boston, who knows? But if he leaves and they don't win the Cup this year, you kind of have to blow it up. I don't disagree with him. You know, I think how many kicks you can do you have to get with the same team before you?

[00:33:00] I think for me, this is going to come down to the true definition of blow it up. And I do not think that a 109-point team from last year is something you need to blow up if they don't win the Stanley Cup. And if it's Marchand you're worried about and he's had two years of points in the 60s, then maybe he's not as big of a loss at the end of next year as you actually think he is. I think there's more retooling that can be done in Boston before you'd have to blow it up. They've still got some life. Dan?

[00:33:30] Dan, you're on mute, buddy. Oh, shit. I have no idea. I've been immune for a while. No, these kind of things, there's always a team out there or two that surprise you that, wow, they're still in the playoffs. They're still seriously contenders hanging around and making it hard for other teams to get through. So, you know, in the end, it's not going to surprise me, but it's like the counter argument to the team.

[00:33:59] It's like, okay, they're ready to pop. They're going to make the playoffs and they never do, right? And you've seen teams go through this and they never make a serious run and they fizzle out. And it was against all expectations. So, it's very hard for me to predict, you know, which way it's going to go. But I can't argue with the point that it could be the end of the line for them. You see so much has changed the last couple of years. If they don't do it now, I know it looks like it's all short-term moves to make this year the last hurrah. I agree. Yeah.

[00:34:28] I mean, I get what you're saying, Bobby. You're right. You know, retooling, of course, you want to stay as relevant as possible. You know, blowing it up to us means, you know, just getting rid of every... Yeah. Yeah. Just getting rid of anybody with value, getting younger, cheaper, and trying to go in a completely different direction. No, the Bruins don't have to do that. Even if Marshawn left, you know, we thought that, you know, when Bergeron left and Krejci left, that there was going to be a problem. Right? And there wasn't.

[00:34:57] And now, but they're going into this season without Olmark and maybe next, you know, moving forward without Marshawn, which I can't see Marshawn playing for anybody else right now. Now, I know I said that about Stamkos too, but, you know, that's a year away. So we'll worry about that this year. But the thing is that they can win the cup. But like I said, at some point, when do you say we have to do something different?

[00:35:20] And sometimes, you know, Florida, for instance, you know, maybe two years ago would have been on this list a year ago, you know, but one trade, two years ago at least, one trade was all it took to turn that whole franchise around. It's just getting Matthew Kachuk in there. So, you know, and I might have said Florida would need to blow it up at that point. So I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. For me, it's also hard to talk about blowing up a team when you still got a legit ace goaltender. Yeah. You don't.

[00:35:46] I mean, it's harder to blow up those teams because to do that, you're literally telling, you know, your number one goaltender that we're not going to be competitive for like your tenure. And that doesn't usually work when you've got that good of a goaltender. Now, Dan, does not having Linus Olmark, is that going to hurt Swayman? I mean, those two are tight. I don't think so. You know, these guys are all professionals. They were unusually tight as a tandem. Yeah. They definitely were. So, well, you know, it remains to be seen.

[00:36:15] But I think that both those guys are just those kind of people who they will form new bonds with whoever their tandem mate is. And I think they'll be fine. He'll be fine. He'll move on. And in some ways, he's going to like having the center stage. He was the apprentice. And now he's taken over. And I think Corpus Allo is going to be fine there. I do. I think most goalies in front of Boston, they'll be fine. So, we have a few more to read.

[00:36:44] But before we move further, we have to take a little break, give a little shout out to our Hockey Podcast Network sponsors. DraftKings is definitely one of our only main sponsors, I should say. And they have the Devils at plus $1,300, or at least it was last time I checked. Maybe the odds are even better now. You'd have to go and download the app and use code THPN to find out. And new customers right now, you bet $150 instantly in bonus bets.

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[00:38:11] This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. You know, it's really easy to get caught up in comparing yourself to others, especially in today's world full of social media posts that make everyone's lives seem so great. You find yourself maybe wishing you had what everyone else has. But I have to tell you, comparing yourself to others, that's not a path to happiness. And for those of you that just can't seem to focus on what you truly want, maybe therapy can help.

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[00:39:05] Stop comparing and start focusing with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash THPN today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash THPN. Thank you, BetterHelp, our new sponsor here on the Hockey Podcast Network. All right. Bobby, I feel like I can tell you anything when you read those. You can.

[00:39:34] Like you could be my personal therapist. I thought that's what the show was for you. This show is my therapy. So, yeah. Number two. The second team on here. Carolina. The Carolina Hurricanes have been the NHL's undisputed champions of summer. Votes Rob Brindamore's team in the subsequent sweat navigation conference finals by the Florida Panthers in 2023,

[00:40:00] but entered the subsequent offseason as a consensus favored among betting types, including folks at DraftKings, which made them a plus 800 pick. Back in August, it didn't work out. The Hurricanes were plenty good with 111 points and the third overall finish behind only Dallas and the Rangers. But a six-game loss to the Rangers ended the sixth straight season, which they'd reached the playoffs, but not won a game past round two.

[00:40:26] No fewer than 10 players now on the roster will be on track for UFA after season number seven, including 30-plus goal defensemen Dmitry Orlov, Brett Burns, which means by the time training camp opens for number eight, the climate in Raleigh may have changed a bit. So the Carolina Hurricanes, very interesting team, right? They lost a lot of guys. Seems like they are not willing to pay. And for whatever reason, they kind of had a mass exodus this offseason.

[00:40:55] And usually when that happens, it's not a good sign. I think they have – and even their GM left. Like, I don't know what's going on. They did give the extension to Brindamore, which was a brilliant move. He's an amazing coach. But I don't know what the hell they're going to look like, man. I – you know, what do you do if you're Carolina this year and you regress again and you maybe don't get out of the first round?

[00:41:21] So, you know, at what point do you have to make some serious changes in Carolina? Man. You know, even worse is that – what's a regression for Carolina? Just say the regular season. You know, 111 points last year. Right. They're going to fall off. Well, I think – like, I think hair on fire might be like Carolina in a wild card spot. Like, that would be like – how did they fall that far?

[00:41:48] So, 95, 96 points maybe in – you know, close to a bubble. Like, is that a failure when you're still flirting with 100 points? Well, if you have no chance of winning the cup when you last year, you know, two years ago won the division, you made it – you know, just two years ago. You made it to the finals. Yeah. You didn't win a game. You got swept. It was – you know, you – like, I think two of the four games were in overtime. Like, it was rough. I think every game was by one goal. Like, that's a tough way to lose.

[00:42:16] But then you regressed and you lost in the second round this year. And next year you go in as a wild card. You know, at what point do you say, are we becoming the Vegas Golden Knights or are we becoming the Washington Capitals? Like, what are we doing here? Well, before this free agency, they were definitely, like, on red alert, get things done, get it done now. And I was going to expect them, this free agency, to finally address the goaltending problem

[00:42:43] that has been holding them back, to, you know, make some moves, to sign contracts, to keep some of these impending UFAs from, you know, leaving. And they've done none of that. So after this free agency, it is, like, not a matter of, like, well, is this going to be their last – I think the answer is, like, resoundingly, yeah, if they're going to do anything, it's this year. It also seems that it's even less likely they will.

[00:43:08] It seems like this team that they've put together so far from free agency is markedly lesser on paper than the one that got bounced in the second round. And I don't know. I don't think it's crazy at all. You don't necessarily have to have your hair on fire to think that they're going to be competing for a playoff spot because they've lost a lot. Everybody left. It's tough. So, you know, sometimes these teams can surprise you after this. They come together.

[00:43:37] And if anybody can do it, Brendan Moore can. So you do not count them out until the games are played. They do have a winning tradition there that is, you know, not to be underestimated. But the personnel changes and losses, yeah, dude, if they can't get things together this year, then I don't think they're going to. And I think it's even less likely that they will than before the free agency.

[00:44:02] I got to come off of my literal blow it up scenario in order for me to answer these questions a little better, right? Because I totally understand everything Dan just said about Carolina. I feel oddly that, yeah, I would probably say Carolina is closer to that than Boston. But I fear that where Carolina is going is that mushy competitive middle for a long time. I don't know that they have the pieces to completely blow it up. I don't know that they can – how fast they can replace everybody. I mean, I just saw something today.

[00:44:32] I totally forget his name if anyone else saw it. They might be losing another guy who's going to sign back to the KHL. Oh, shit. I didn't see that. I forget his name right now. I just tried to look it up. But, you know, it's hard when you're doing a show. Right. But I don't know if it's true or what. We should play poker. Yeah, we should play poker. For money. Yeah, that'll be fun. But, yeah, if they keep going down, they might need to make some serious changes. Yeah. Carolina's a fascinating team to me this year. Like, you know, they do have such a strong core and such a strong culture,

[00:45:01] and they are so well coached, but they lost so much personnel. Like, can they recover from that? Like, they kind of don't scare me right now, but they're also that team that because of Brendan Moore, because of some of those pieces they have, maybe they are going to be just as good. But I just don't see it. The guys that they lost were just – not just, you know, these were great, good players. Well, that's Kuznetsov. Kuznetsov. Thank you. Yeah. So, I don't know, man.

[00:45:28] I'm really, really interested to see if Carolina – what they do this year because, man, you lose that kind of – that much people. And like you said, Dan, they never even addressed the goaltender. When you look at it strictly from, you know, the point of view of, you know, analytics, I just don't know if that helps. I just don't know if that's the right way. I mean, Freddie Anderson wasn't healthy most of the year. He'll be healthy this year. Does that change things? I don't know. I mean, he was a weak point in the playoffs. I mean, straight up.

[00:45:57] You look at the Rangers series, where the Rangers had the biggest advantage was in goal. And that's what cost them because they were an even team pretty much top to bottom except for in net. And it cost them in six games. They didn't fix that. So, when you play the Rangers again in the playoffs, they're going to beat you again. You know? It's just – next team. The Los Angeles Kings. This one, I don't know.

[00:46:23] I don't know a ton about the Kings, so let's get educated by Mr. Fitzsimmons. Or was it Fitzsimmons? Fitzsimmons. It was. Okay. Okay. Let's be honest here. His words, not mine. Even if things go terrifically well for the Los Angeles Kings this year, they still might not win. They had missed the playoffs in three straight seasons before their most recent return to relevance, which has included a 100-point average over three subsequent seasons,

[00:46:50] though each was ended with a first-round exit courtesy of the Edmonton Oilers. GM Rod Blake pulled off an early summer miracle by trading Pierre-Luc Dubois and his albatross contract to Washington for cup-winning goalie Darcy Kemper. For free agents, but free agency defections elsewhere on the roster have dipped the team to a plus 2,200 title prospect. And if the forecast beyond next summer doesn't look markedly better, it might be time for Blake to adjust to life without the likes of Anze Kopitar,

[00:47:18] who will be 37 when this season begins, and Drew Doughty, who will be 35 in December, and probably not interested in the idea of staying through 2027 with no chance at a third championship ring. All right. So he's got the LA Kings there. Now, I mean, yeah, at some point with LA, like, you, you know, you can't beat Edmonton. Was it three years in a row? Like, you have to do something to make sure you can beat that team. I don't know if they did it.

[00:47:47] Bringing Darcy Kemper in and goal, I don't know. Is that much of an upgrade? I don't really like Darcy Kemper. I don't know. I mean, they got rid of Pierre-Luc Dubois. They have some good players on that team, but I don't think that LA in no way, shape, or form scares me. You know, I don't think they're a legitimate threat to win the cup. So I don't know. I mean, I don't know enough about the team or watch them enough to say whether I think they can tinker around the edges and fix shit or if they need to blow it up. I'm with you. This one's tough.

[00:48:17] Like you said, the average 100 points last three years, it was 99 points, 104 and 99. That screams of a successful team, but they've never put fear into it for sure. And I think this team could get old real fast. I can see them dropping off real fast one day, maybe this year or next. So this will be the first one that I think I would agree with. This would be a blow up if they don't win. Dan, you're still muted. You're muted.

[00:48:46] He just doesn't want to talk to us. It's very loud here today. It's my bad. So, you know, with L.A., they're benefiting from a pretty weak division and that they've been able to accumulate points but never been that dangerous. And so that's not going to change too much. So I wonder what their impetus is to, like, blow what up is really my question. You know, like, what do they got really cooking there, built around who?

[00:49:11] I just see them as benefiting from being at a spot where it's going to be hard for them not to accumulate points in that conference and in that division, you know, to get themselves a spot. I don't know. I mean, I kind of agree with Bobby more on that one. I think, like, you know, they do have Quentin Byfield there. He's a heck of a young player. But, you know, I don't know the rest of their roster very well. But, I mean, every team's getting better. That's the thing.

[00:49:38] Like, at some point, you're going to have to, you know, deal with the Anaheims and the Sharks and these teams that are going to be getting better soon. And if L.A. is really, like, either they're not competing with the big guys. I mean, they are the definition, right, of mushy middle, right? Exactly. They can't compete. But then it comes down to how serious are you going to be? How serious do you want to win? Because you either have to say, okay, it's going to be a five-year rebuild. We're going to start with the draft.

[00:50:07] We're going to, you know, we're going to do what Anaheim did. It's going to be five years. And we've got to dump all these old guys. At some point, you have to try and compete for a cup, you know? I just think when we're looking at them compared to, like, Boston and Carolina, they're two teams that were seriously, you know, flirting with greatness and winning the cup. And, you know, definitely. So are you saying that maybe the Kings shouldn't even be on this list? I'm just wondering, what are they blowing up? Blowing what up? I got you. You know what I mean? They've been stuck in the middle for so long now. Like, I don't understand what we're blowing up here. Okay.

[00:50:37] Dan doesn't see, like, what big pieces they're even going to make a shocking trade for to get great stuff back. Yeah. Yeah. You know, who's anybody who's really young on that list are the ones you're not going to do that with. Right. So, yeah. This next team, I'm really interested to see what he wrote and then to hear what you guys have to say. The New York Rangers, he has on this list. He wrote, the Rangers may have a bit more runway than some other teams on this list. None of their offensive difference makers on the verge of free age.

[00:51:06] None of their offensive difference makers is on the, are on the verge of free agency. I'm sorry. It's not me. It's the writing. And considering the elder statesman of that group, 33-year-old winger Chris Kreider popped in 39 goals and neared a career best with 75 points. It's not likely age will be an immediate issue either. But it is New York, which means patience is already a little thin. Winning a president's trophy exactly 30 years. Oh, God. Okay.

[00:51:36] Yeah, we know. And he talks about the fucking guarantee. Is there a guarantee? Yeah. And about that free agency thing, goaltender Igor Shosturkin is entering the final year of his contract and could command eight figures annually. But the chances of him beginning 25-26 in another uniform could ratchet up in a deep cut run if a deep cut run doesn't occur. So, the New York Rangers are a very interesting team because I agree with him.

[00:52:04] Igor Shosturkin is the main guy right now that you have to really consider and he has to consider. Like, are you, if this team doesn't win a Stanley Cup this year, built as is, you have to make some serious changes. Now, of course, you hope that you can kind of just tinker around the edges and still be a contender.

[00:52:26] But if you're Igor Shosturkin and you're going to sit down and sign an eight-year contract with this team, you know, you have to know before you, you know, put pen to paper here of what direction this team is going in. And that's, you know, I'm surprised the deal is not even done yet. If that would have been the first thing I did, I wouldn't have even let the guy leave New York without having an extension done. But, yeah, I mean, that's an interesting thing. What do you do with New York if they don't win the Cup?

[00:52:56] Yeah, the problem is, like, with Shosturkin, you can't let him walk, right? You got the best goalie in the world. You want to keep him. But how about the fact that if this guy gets what he's asking for? Like, they're not, they haven't won the Cup now when he's making whatever, like six million, like, you know, your average goalie, right? So now he's going to take up even more percent of the cap for X amount of years. I know the back end of that eight-year deal, the cap keeps going up. It'll be a smaller sum.

[00:53:21] But for the initial three, four years, you're going to tie up even more money on a team that hasn't gotten over the hump. I know they've gotten very close, right? So kudos for that. But you didn't win it. So that's a fascinating problem because you're going to give this guy 10, 12 million, and now you have even less money to actually get players you need and stop just picking up everybody at the trade deadline because you're the Rangers. So I would say on this one, I'm just a fan of blowing up the team in general. Nothing to do with standings. Just blow them up.

[00:53:48] But blowing up is, you know, that's something that you really do have to think about because you just said it, right? Like, they do have a little bit of youth, you know, with Cooley there and a couple of the, you know, Schneider's young, right? And the other defensemen, oh my God, I can't remember his name, Miller, Keandre Miller. Alpharnier had a great year. Yeah, you know, they do have some youth there, but they built this team around Kreider and Savannah Jad and Panarin. That's the core. Those are the three main guys.

[00:54:17] Like, what do you do? I think all those other pieces are good, but I think you maybe, you know, you have to do something with those top guys because they're not winning. They're not doing it in the playoffs. So, yeah, I mean, and if you're Shostakovich and you're one of those dudes too, like, do I want to be the best player on this team right now for the next eight years and never compete for a cup? Or, you know, what do you do? That's, damn, what do you think happens with the Rangers? Yeah, that is a huge deal there.

[00:54:46] And you're right to focus on the top guys and who's really playoff ready. So, if I'm the Rangers and I want to make this push and I want to keep Shostakovich, I am kind of blowing up this team and I'm kind of doing it sooner than later. And I wouldn't be surprised if they go, I mean, who knows what they're going to do. But you're right, they've built around Panarin and others who go away when the playoffs get tough.

[00:55:12] And this is not going to be what you want to make your team that has, you know, a very competitive self right now get over the edge. So, I would love if I was them to change out and make a big, huge seat change on the team with our top guys. You know, let's move them out and let's get different guys in. They didn't really show that in the, you know, free agency market in the summer. So, I don't know if that's the direction they're going. It looks like they want to keep the gang together.

[00:55:42] And if that's the case, then yeah, you're on borrowed time. Because not only is Sterkin, but the fans are going to get pretty bummed when every time he's in a difficult series, you know, Panarin's MIA and they're doing the same thing over and over again. So, I think the Rangers are really smart this offseason to not go crazy. I think they were really smart to keep this team as is because I think you have to give these guys one more year. Everybody is still playing at such a high level. I do.

[00:56:11] But, again, if they go into the playoffs this year and they lose in the first, second, or third round and those guys are not showing up again. And now it's, this is, now it's a pattern. Now they're choke artists. They can't handle the playoffs. You've got to cut ties with them. And at that point, yeah, you'd have to turn around to guys like, you know, Lafiniere and the guys that, young guys that have had, you know, really came out of this year and say, we're going to lean on you.

[00:56:41] We're going to put some talent around you, but you're now the new leader of this young team and you're going to have to blow it. And I think that would be blowing it up. If you got rid of Prider and Zibanejad and Panarin, even just Panarin and Zibanejad to me, that would be blowing up in New York. I mean, there's no scenario in which they blow up and move it to Sterkin. That would be like suicide. But when, what if you're, but you know what? All right. Here's a, here's a problem, right? Let's say the Rangers are right there, right?

[00:57:09] Top two, three, four team in the league. They're have just as good a chance of winning the cup as any other team, but just Sterkin has not signed yet. And there's a chance that you can win the Stanley cup. And this guy walks out of your building and go sign with another team for seven years. Yeah. Thank God for the chance though. Put them in that spot. Do I trade him in March and get a shitload in return?

[00:57:37] And no, I'm not going to win the cup this year, but maybe I can build up. So two, three years down the road, I can take a good kick at it because, you know, what do you do at that point? Do you say, I trust Jonathan quick and win us the cup and we trade just Sterkin. Like a trade would involve another goalie who's still not, they're not going to get like a bottom tier goalie to replace him. They would have to get some major pieces. And even then that'd be a tough sell for their fans.

[00:58:03] The only way they'd accept it is that Sterkin had a rocky year, which by the way, they should forgive if he ever has one rocky year. It was the real deal. I totally agree. I think they are absolutely screwed. They are handcuffed. He's that good. You cannot get rid of them. Therefore, you have to pay them. It would take a GM with major balls to do anything else with him. I just don't see it happening in this league. I agree.

[00:58:31] What the Rangers need is they're still a really good team. Obviously, look what they did last year. They need like a Kachuk type trade to get like that one really good kind of player in there. But it's not going to happen again. Like, I don't know who that would even be that could come into this team because at least Florida needed something. Like, the Rangers should be good enough. They're just not because their players go away in the playoffs. But they would need something like that rather than a blowup.

[00:58:55] But you'd have to have the balls to call Ottawa and say, we're going to give you Panarin for, you know, Brady Kachuk. Oh, yeah. You know, that... It's got to be a big hockey trade. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You're not... You know, you'd have to say goodbye to Zibanejad or Panarin or, you know... Who knows? I mean, that's interesting, though. It's going to be such a fun season. All I do is I hope everything falls apart around the Rangers and everything goes perfect for the devil. I want a complete inverse of what happened last year.

[00:59:25] I mean, I feel like it's due. Yeah. I mean, they watched us completely fall to shambles. You know how satisfying that had to be for them? The team that beat them in the playoffs and the next season, we look like the Keystone Cops 90% of the fucking time out there. Yeah. They were laughing at us. My team lost one out of five games. Let me see what the devils are doing. Oh, now I feel better. Exactly. The next team on this list, Tampa Bay. This Tampa Bay blowed up. You're right. So, transition in Tampa has already begun.

[00:59:54] The Lightning made the big headlines when they essentially exchanged Stamkos for big-ticket free agent Jake Getzel, who was signed for seven years at $9 million. GM Julian Brisoie said still has plenty in the cupboard alongside his new prize and the former veteran cup winners Nikita Kucherev, great in point, Victor Hedman, and Andrei Vasilevskiy. But this team has had two straight first-round flops since its run of three straight cup finals and a third early exit.

[01:00:24] And given that each of them, he's talking about, will be making at least $8 million through 2027. He's talking to, who's he talking about? Vasilevskiy and... Edmund. Edmund. And Getzelman. Yeah. They may also start to seem like a luxury that a team in need of a makeover can no longer afford. Tampa Bay. Talk about regression. You said it. Three straight cup wins and followed by first-round exits.

[01:00:49] They, you know, have a lot of good pieces, but they just a lot. They look like they got old and, you know, I don't know if losing Stamkos makes them better. I like Jake Getzel, but I'm not just... I think Getzel will give them more points. I think Getzel will have a better offensive season. But what that team is losing in Stephen Stamkos, the man and the hockey player, I don't think Jake Getzel is better.

[01:01:15] Um, so I say, yeah, if you go to a first-round exit again, like you went from winning cups to competing for wild cards, at some point, you gotta cut ties with everybody. And you gotta blow it the fuck up. This team, 100%, they have to blow it up if they don't make a run this year. I've been projecting their demise a little too prematurely. I keep thinking, waiting for them to finally kind of fall off. They haven't really done it. Their GM doesn't think they're going to.

[01:01:45] Having Getzel in there. And when you look at, I mean, they have their star forward. They have one of the best defensemen. And they have one of the best goalies. It's another one of those ones where it's really difficult to kind of pull that trade and say, we're not going to compete for a few years. But I don't see them getting better. And how do you tell the Jake Getzel that you're about to blow it up? Exactly. After you just got him there. And this is why it is, it's a trap, the business side of it.

[01:02:13] Like you do wind up in this mushy middle that I say probably way too much because you're both trying to win and trying to appease and have the business side of it. And then the reality is you just wake up after 10 years of that and you're not really going anywhere. So I would say, yeah, maybe after this, maybe it's time. Got some great pieces they can move. Absolutely. And you don't have to move Getzel and Hedman.

[01:02:38] You can build around them and you can get rid of, you know, some of these other dudes and try and get just a different look of this team. And maybe, maybe Getzel will be it. You know, who knows? Maybe they have, I still think they're a really good team. But I also think that at some point you can't just keep losing in the first round after what you did. Like at some point you have to say, all right, we're going to, you know, we're going to, we're going to build around these guys. We're going to trade some of our bigger names and see what we can do.

[01:03:07] You say like you don't have to trade Hedman, for example. You're going to build, well, Hedman just signed his four-year deal expecting a competitive team. He wouldn't want to stick around if this was going to happen. He's not here long enough for you to build around. You know, that is a guy you ship out. Yeah, you're right. You are. And maybe even Getzel at some point. I don't know if these guys have no trade. He's so flippable. He really is, right? Like any team would take him. Even for $9 million a year. Yeah.

[01:03:32] You know, so yeah, I think, I think that Tampa does have a lot riding on this season. What do you think, Dan? You know, a lot of what we are discussing here, there's one thing that alters it that, you know, I know that I don't have a lot of inside information in. And I think a lot of people don't. And nobody really knows until it happens. It's just how the farm system in the teams we're talking about works. Because that's like the key to avoiding these rebuilds.

[01:04:00] I mean, imagine no, you know, players coming up through your organization homegrown. What you end up with are these, you know, top heavy contracts that are basically sapping your ability to get in reasonably good players on the rest of the team. And then you don't have a team anymore. And then you talk about blowing it up and moving these guys out. Tampa, I think, has, you know, moderate success there. They know they, but they do look like they, they have these guys tied.

[01:04:28] They're tying themselves to these contracts and they'll come a point where it's just not going to be good enough and they're going to have to move it in. And the only thing that could save them is, is some unforeseen development from their homegrown guys stepping in and for basically peanuts, you know, carrying the load that allow you to afford those stars and, and keep going, you know, that's what everybody wants to have. And I really don't know where they're at with that, but I think that's the only thing that could save them. Yeah.

[01:04:57] I mean, this is also a team though, that I wouldn't be shocked if they're competing for the Stanley cup next year. Like I really wouldn't. Much like the Rangers, Vasilevsky is just starting. I mean, they have the goaltending. They know how to win. That's so important. Like just knowing how to handle, I mean, Florida was a different team from last year to this year, especially in the finals, just having that. And Tampa has that. They still have those veterans on the team. There's two more on the list. We're only going to do one because the one that we're not going to do is Winnipeg.

[01:05:25] And I don't think any of us know enough about Winnipeg to actually talk about whether or not they could blow it up. So we're just going to do this one, Toronto. This one's, I don't know. All right. There are only six on the list because of the alphabet. In reality though, the Toronto Maple Leafs are poster boys for the blow it up concept. Anyone with a hockey card collection and a wifi signal is aware that the franchise hasn't won a championship since the league had six teams and passionate fans of the blue and

[01:05:52] white could also tell you how many playoff series they won in the last 20 years. One still, it's not as if they haven't tried the team's core for offensive stars will each make better than $10 million a season. And it's overall overall output of 298 goals was second in the league behind Colorado. The Maple Leafs added veterans Chris Tanev and Oliver Ekman Larson to the blue line during free agency and are sitting at plus 13, according to DraftKings, 1300, making them fourth in betting choice on the board.

[01:06:21] If it doesn't work out though, stand back. The debris could spread for miles. Toronto Maple Leafs. I, you know, again, I've said this a million times, like at some point you have to just stop being insane and trying the exact same thing over and over again. If they fall in the first round again, everybody, but Austin Matthews should be gone. And I would get rid of, you know, Marner, even Nylander. I would get rid of like everybody.

[01:06:50] It was a, you know, wasn't, um, well, who's the defenseman that's been with them through everyone. I can't remember Morgan Riley and maybe, um, you have to, at some point you have to just go the other direction because what you have does not work. Like you, like we invest heavily on our core group, right? It's offensive production. It's Heischer, it's Hughes, it's Pratt, it's Meyer. If we went through the last four or five years of losing in the playoffs in the first round

[01:07:19] and those dudes just not being able to get it done, we would be saying the exact same thing as devil fans. You have to get rid of them. It's not working. Get different people in, do whatever you have to do, blow the fucking team up if you have to, but this isn't working. I'd rather take another three or four years and build up through some, you know, a couple of guys in the system and free agency and build around Matthews that way and, and then deal with this shit. That's how I would feel.

[01:07:49] I think I'm with you, dude. Like, I remember like when they got Tavares, I just, I kind of had this feeling like, you know, more of the same instead of making it a multi-dimensional kind of attack. They are a fascinatingly fun regular season team. We do bust their balls because they're the fact that they can't win the playoffs, but yeah, outside of Matthews, if it doesn't work, I would just, you got to put the right team together.

[01:08:15] You know, these all-star teams are always trying to do in general, they don't seem to work. They really don't. Um, I would be in favor of watching them make a lot. I mean, they're not going to blow up everybody, you know, probably three or four of their stars could switch around, but you got to keep Matthews and build around him and develop a better core. So it's going to be a very interesting year for them. I agree. Yeah. Much like a New York, this is the poster child for, you know, the, um, intense media market

[01:08:44] team and the, and the handicapping that really brings when it comes to putting the best possible team together, you know? Um, I think even more than New York, like they love their stars. They, I mean, New York wants to win. They get excited about it, but I don't think the New York fans are as likely to recognize the players walking down the street like they do in Toronto. I mean, those guys are like heroes. This is Toronto we're talking about. So like they get married to these players and they get married to these players and pay

[01:09:12] them, like you said, over $10 million a year. The four players we're talking about, it gives them a team without the proper depth. And they also have all that extra pressure, uh, from that intense media market. And I was just watching, you know, made a big deal about Matthews chasing, you know, the 70 goals, uh, as he, as he closed in on at the end of the season. And you could just see the pressure around that team. It's just not good for them.

[01:09:39] Um, so the question is, do you blow this up? Is this, is this officially not working? People will definitely call for that at some point, but I think it's weird because you said it Chris here. I think we would be more likely to change out personnel than them. I think they hold on to some of those guys a little too long and then they do turn on them viciously at some point. It might be this year. Uh, and fan sentiment kind of rules, um, that they are used to losing, uh, but still they get tired of things.

[01:10:09] And this might be the year that they, they have to just blow everything up. I can see that. I like your, your stance that, that the culture and environment in Toronto and how that team is under such a microscope that is just as, um, responsible for their failings as management and the players on the ice. I think there's a lot of fucking truth to that. You know, it's gotta be really hard to fucking play there, man. And then, like you said, you know, you see it in Matthews trying to go for 70. Yeah.

[01:10:36] It sucks, but yeah, they got to do something though, because it just, and I think they're think this year's team just because of Craig Berube, I think is going to look totally different. I, I think Toronto Maple Leafs are going to be a scary team this year. There's just so many people, fans, teams, media that focus strictly on the stats. Like if you had a 30 goal scoring winger and you replace them with a 20 goal scoring winger, oh, your production went down 10 goals.

[01:11:03] It's like the end of the world, not counting for what that player may bring other elements that works on a line, clears traffic for another superstar. So I just get tired of seeing kind of these teams loaded with, I mean, we're close to it, right? We've got four or five, $8 million players, but they haven't shown any signs that they can't gel together other than, you know, this last year. There's also the contracts make a huge fucking difference in the way that it's looked at.

[01:11:30] Like, you know, you don't hear that from New Jersey because they either are so young and they haven't had this type of failure yet, you know, last season. And you, you hear it in the media markets, you know, you listen to the experts and they talk about this team. They do look at last year as a blip in the radar. Like this is a young, really good team. All right. They, 112 points. Maybe they over, you know, overachieved a little bit, but this year, nobody's saying this team's not going to make the playoffs again. Like, so we don't have that.

[01:11:59] And the contracts make a huge difference. If, you know, Timo Meyer was making $11 million a year and the start of the year that he had here in Jersey, imagine that in Toronto. Imagine what that feels like in Toronto dealing with that. Like, you know, we haven't dealt with that. And I don't think that we're, I also think this team's going to win. They're completely built different. Like you look at something about Toronto's core guys. Like they don't seem like they really like each other or gel.

[01:12:29] Well, I don't know. It just like our guys all seem really tight. And for some reason, when I look at Toronto, maybe they're best friends. I don't know. Maybe they have fucking sleepovers, but they don't seem like it. Marner seems like a douche who's really difficult to deal with. So I think there's a lot of fucking things with this team. And I don't think Craig Berube is going to put up with any of it. And if they failed again this year, then Berube will be the guy that might force the hand to blow it up. You know, I'm a Leafs fan.

[01:12:56] I am thrilled that they got Berube in because if anybody's going to stop this, you know, march towards blowing it up, I think he's got a great shot at it. I mean, you know, people need to start looking at Austin Matthews the same way they're looking at, you know, Connor McDavid in a lot of ways. You know, is Connor McDavid ever going to win a cup or is that going to affect his legacy? You don't hear about that from Austin Matthews too much. Like you should. Like that dude's that good.

[01:13:22] That team should be doing everything in their power to make sure that dude gets a cup because, you know, he's generational. Operational. I mean, the guy is the best goal scorer in the fucking world. So I think he sticks around. I get rid of everybody else if they don't, if they fail in the first round this year. I mean, I think for Devils fans, you know, it might be hard to hear this, but it's very likely at the end of the next seven, eight years, depending on how the contracts fall, two of our four offensive superstars probably aren't going to be on the team.

[01:13:51] If Tom Fitzgerald is seriously trying to run like a team, a competitive team through and through. Now, one of them is probably going to be Meyer because he'll be the kind of the older guy expiring in his contract. But one of Hughes, Hughes, Brad or Heischer likely gone. Yeah. Because they do deserve raises. Yeah. They will. And you cannot give them all. And what's it going to be then? It's going to be 12, $13 million a year for forwards. So that's just the reality.

[01:14:19] And then you have to really look at like, who do you leave behind? Didn't I bring up that one article where someone's saying that Luke Hughes' contract, next contract may be bigger than Jack's? Sure. Who would have saw that coming? Like literally. That's in no way, shape or form shocks me. No. It's just the timing of where it is. Yeah. Did you guys ever consider like what it would look like and if there's any, I don't know if there's any precedence in other sports for it where, okay, we got salary cap.

[01:14:48] I want salary cap. I want teams like Winnipeg to be competitive with other cities and that's great. But what about like outside the salary cap kind of proposition where if a player reaches and wins the Stanley Cup, the team can go and add these bonuses. Like, and I'll tell you why I'm not so opposed to that. Like what you got then is players. They can't add bonuses? Well, that's what I'm saying.

[01:15:13] Like, wouldn't that be something like, let's say I'm a player who's due for that $10 million, $12 million contract. Right. But I want to win. This team saying, if you do win and only if you win, you get this much and it doesn't hurt their cap. So how do you feel about that kind of league? Does that, is that too unfair? Is it against the spirit? I think that that is totally, I mean, they were saying nobody has any contract like this. Yeah.

[01:15:42] I mean, Kyle O'Posa, they were saying that in his contract during the finals that if they won, he got a half a million dollar bonus. So I'm sure that there's tons of, and he's Kyle O'Posa. I'm sure Jack Hughes bonus for winning the cup is a lot more. You know, Connor McDavid's and, you know, stuff like that. So I'm sure they get a nice big bonus for winning the cup. I would see if I could make it like a more of a sizable percentage of their annual contract

[01:16:07] as like a real motivator because a lot of these guys, they want to get paid for sure. But I mean, you know why too? And they could afford it. Like when you win the cup, you're going to get all this bump in merchandising and everything else. And I feel it's like, yeah, I mean, it would bring out the best and not just the mercenary, you know, the team could go by and every player that they possibly want. They can offer them, but they got to produce it and they got to win.

[01:16:36] And I think way back in the day when we were winning a lot in the playoffs and Stanley Cups and everybody knows we didn't really sell out all that often. I had read that every home playoff game basically netted the team like another million dollars profit and this is going back in the nineties and stuff. So whatever that is now, you know, in today's money. So it's big money. Just keep going. I've always listened. I mean, this is going to sound goofy, but I've always kind of had a problem with expanded salaries in some sports and how it's so out of line.

[01:17:05] I always thought, wouldn't it be cool if there were just three or four levels of salary? You're an A, B, C, or D and the rest is performance-based incentives because you're still talking about, you got your entry-level people making your 750,000. You got your next level. You're in that kind of two, $3 million range right above it. You're six and seven. Then say you got your superstar level. You're a 10 and that's it. You've got to fit into one of those four brackets. And then the rest is performance benefits.

[01:17:33] I think it would make everybody, you're a $6 million player who gets a $2 million bonus. You hit 40 goals or whatever it is. It wouldn't be a perfect system. But when I watch baseball, for example, this is the sport that drives me nuts. And I don't even watch basketball because I know I saw something the other day how one player in basketball, his salary equaled our five highest paid hockey players. And that just seems absolutely ridiculous to me.

[01:17:58] They deserve to make a shitload of money, but it is starting to cost us as fans for all that money. Oh, well, they basically priced most people I know out of going to the games for any kind of regular basis. The contracts in sports and hockey is the only one that's still digestible. But like the hockey salaries in football and it's disgusting. It's fucking disgusting. Tens and sometimes hundreds of millions. This is something that says how the bonus money works in the NHL. Okay.

[01:18:26] A player's contract they sign with the club is paid out during the season, not including any bonuses they get for individual or team accomplishments like winning the Stanley Cup. The team is not paying them any money for the playoffs. However, the NHL does set aside a cash pool of money to be divided amongst the teams in the playoffs. The pool of money is divided between the teams in the playoffs based on how far they make it. So a team losing in the first round will get a smaller portion and a team will win the Stanley Cup.

[01:18:52] Here are the playoff pools of money for some different past and future playoff series. So in 26, 17 and 2017, 2018, it was 15 million. And then it moved to 16 million in 21, 20. That's the whole pot. 17 million most recently. So for the, each player winning the Stanley Cup, they'll receive about $200,000 of that amount. For many players, that would be a cut from the normal amount they make per game during the regular season. But in the end, no player is thinking about the money they want to win the cup.

[01:19:24] So I, I, I guess there are players that do have like individual bonuses, but I see what you're saying with that. Like if you were to make it more, much more performance. Yeah. You know, you might be able to retain players who really want to be part of that team because we're talking, the reason I thought about this is we're talking about, you get to a point where you got to blow it up. Well, you know, maybe you don't have to blow it up. Maybe you can still have a core team that you keep in trying to improve.

[01:19:50] If these guys are, you know, willing to take these, you know, incentives and believe in the team. And I don't know, I just think it's got a nicer way of going about it without completely going around the salary cap, which I like, you know, that keeps them from just being money whores. Yeah. That would mean most owners having to take it out of their direct pockets for bonuses and stuff like that. So I don't know how quick owners would be quick to do that, you know, but regardless, you

[01:20:19] know, it's something that, yeah, if the contracts are the main reason, yes, teams age out, but the main reason you get to this problem, air the contracts. So what you need is not every, every fucking guy trying to be the highest paid fucking guy, you know, like just sometimes good teams talk about that. Yeah. Within themselves. They do talk about, it's just a little shavings here and there. Jack said himself, sign the deal. You know, there, there's things you got to do, bro. Nobody did it better than bro door. Yeah. Guy took basically half of what he got.

[01:20:49] Would you want to be the highest paid guy on your team? I'll tell you why. Any time your team runs into a rough patch, you know, everybody else in that room is going motherfucker. I could have another 500 K, but we all shoveled it towards you and you just let us down tonight. You know what I mean? Like kind of rough, you know, that's thinking negative. And if you're really a winner, you're not thinking negative very often, but that dynamics there, you know, it's interesting. And we'll dive into a locker locker room, uh, psychology.

[01:21:16] I'm just saying, I can't stop thinking about that $200,000, like motion when the Stanley cup. That's like whatever each of us are in different fields. That's like each of us winning the award for the best ever in our field and getting 20 bucks. Right. It's like what we get paid for the show is really what it is. It's like don't oversell. They blew those bonuses on the first fucking night out in Miami. Like they blew those fucking, you know, got an extra 200,000 to kill tonight. Let's fucking get wrecked. I mean, uh, think about it.

[01:21:45] They had to be the best fucking parties. Matthew Kachuk was on an interview. He's like, no, he's like, it had to stop. We had to all leave town. He's like, we were going to die there. It's like, we didn't stop partying. It's crazy. Casinos must love them. You know, after the cutting coming in, like just throwing chips around like crazy. It's gotta be fun. So, all right, we're going to wrap this thing up for tonight. Uh, we'll be back later in the week. Thanks for checking us out. I'd like a five-star review. The download subscription helps a little podcast that could for Dan, Bobby and Chris. We'll see you when we see you.

[01:22:15] Bye-bye. Book is out.

[01:42:06] It's over, Johnny. It's over.